Note: these archives were compiled from past Parking Lot Planet Forums. The answers and opinions are those of the posters. Things may have changed since then, so be sure to get up to date information from the current Parking Lot Planet forum

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Best Coal Tar Sealcoat Available?

Coal tar, overspray and boats....

Coal Tar Sealer: what spec. to use?

Sealcoating Temps

Acrylic Sealer

Slurry Sealing

Sealcoating peeling off

Tack Coat on Old Stripes BEFORE sealcoating?

Any sealcoaters ever used "black beauty"?

Seal coating equipment

Oil Spot Removal from Asphalt

Re: Best Coal Tar Sealcoat Available?

From: Don
Date: 10/17/00
Time: 6:36:51 PM
Remote Name: 208.180.74.170

Comments

I'll vote for StarSeal Supreme. Excellent product, great customer service, consistent quality. If you are in an area where original formula (coal-tar) Jennite is still available (the new formula is asphalt emulsion, it depends on which plant you're close to) that would have been my previous choice. (the new formula is not in my area yet)

Re: Best Coal Tar Sealcoat Available?

From: BobbyTox
Date: 10/18/00
Time: 12:00:01 AM
Remote Name: 152.163.197.46

Comments

I also vote for StarSeal and there additive "macroflex" is very good. Ive only used it one time and I liked it. I say this because I stripe for a sealcoater and he uses it and he uses alot of water in his mix and it holds up fairly well for the amount of water he adds. If he mixed it right it would really last very well. Does anyone have an opinion on Gem Seal sealer?

Re: Best Coal Tar Sealcoat Available?

From: Don
Date: 10/18/00
Time: 8:31:20 AM
Remote Name: 208.180.74.170

Comments

Just a note: StarSeal Supreme contains all the "good stuff" like rubber and does not require additives. StarSeal's regular coal tar is a good standard sealer and macroflex is a good additive I've heard. Be wary of sealcoaters who like to use "a lot of water" (more than the manufacturer specifies). Sealcoat is like paint in the fact that what the customer gets is what's left after it dries. Also too much water can interfere with the sealer's binding of the sand because the sand is over-saturated with water and can't absorb the coal-tar binder. This results in “roll-out” of the sand under traffic. There are various other RP-355 sealers by major manufacturers that are all fairly good Gem Seal is among them. Gem Seal’s premium product is called PolyTar. I hope the questioner realizes that regardless of brand the contractor can make or break the quality of the job just like with striping.

Best Coal Tar Sealer? Ain't No Such Thing!

From: Bookman
Date: 10/21/00
Time: 11:54:08 AM
Remote Name: 32.101.71.125

Comments

I hate to burst some PMC’s “bubbles” but it’s time for a reality check. You can’t become the best sealcoater in your area until you learn all the dirty little secrets in our industry and devise a plan to set your company FAR ABOVE ACCEPTED INDUSTRY STANDARDS. That’s easy to do, because our “standards” are pretty damned low. Most humans make decisions based on emotion or logic. If you’re an emotional decision maker, this post may be difficult or impossible for you to accept. For the logical thinker, it’s going to be a piece of cake, because it’s a basic no-brainer. Here’s the deal. Think of coal tar (or asphalt) emulsions like colas. They’re all basically the same. Each has subtle differences which appeal to different people. Drink a particular brand long enough & it will become your “standard.”

Over the years, I’ve used 4 brands of sealer. With any of them I can give my customer a superior job (far exceeding RP355e) or I can sell ‘em a snake oil job that won’t last 2 months. True, different brands of sealer and additives have somewhat different “working” characteristics and will dry different shades of black. Some look oily and wet, while others appear “dry” but they are essentially the same. Here’s why: Assuming all coal tar emulsions produced in the USA for BULK sale to contractors meet federal specs, they are all essentially the same. Currently these specs are: RP355e, Military Spec. MIL C 15203c, FAA Spec P625, ASTM-D2939, ASSHTO-T44, ASTM D-217, Fed Spec TTC-5558 and FAA P626A. For the purposes of PMC’s, the essential part of these specs is that they contain something OVER 50% solids, as opposed to pail products sold at retail outlets. Those generally range from 8-22% solids but are rarely, if ever, labeled as such. By the same token, we PMC’s don’t get much information either unless we ask for an MSD sheet.

All those specs sound pretty impressive and look good on the manufacturers’ glossy full-color brochures. However, if you have “insider” knowledge of our industry per se, or the actual manufacturing process of sealers, you will eventually recognize one basic fact of life. ALL SEALERS ARE MADE TO ESSENTIALLY THE SAME SPECS. So from a logical evaluation, how could anyone conclude that one is significantly better than another? You can’t. But there is another factor you must consider to change your viewpoint if you currently believe one brand is somehow “better” than the others. When you go to the Expo, get every manufacturer’s brochure and MSD sheet. The brochures will usually tell you in bold print that their product ‘MEETS AND EXCEEDS GOVERNMENT SPECIFICATIONS.” But check out their MSD sheet & its highly unlikely you’ll ever see one that EXCEEDS THOSE SPECS BY MORE THAN 1%!!! So if I was an attorney attempting to make my point that there isn’t any such thing as one product being the BEST, I’d simply say “I rest my case” & hope that the jury was comprised of intelligent people who could think on a logical basis rather than emotionally.

But for the benefit of PMC’s we need to go much further. Sooner or later, you’ll realize that none of the specs mentioned previously create a Superior Grade of sealer. Instead, they create a Basic Grade of sealer & it’s really nothing to brag about. But it’s a consistent starting point for a conscientious PMC’s intent on providing the customers with an excellent product. By mixing in well-established percentages of water, rubber(s), viscosity builders (to keep sand in suspension) and anti-skid aggregate (silica sand or boiler slag), you can CREATE a truly SUPERIOR grade of sealer that far exceeds the mediocre product you started out with, specifically RP355e. Here is the humorous part. Over the years, I’ve found 2 types of PMCs especially fond of quoting federal specs to their prospective customers. White collar entrepreneurs/salesmen, as well as fly-by-night scam artists, love federal specs, but for different reasons. A reputable white collar business owner usually quotes them because he mistakenly believes they represent high standards and considers them to be more significant than they really are. But that’s okay because he frequently intends to offer his customer an even better product. In contrast, the scam artists use brochures & federal specs as nothing more than BAIT to entrap their victims. Then they deliver a substandard product that has been severely watered down & cannot deliver protection to the pavement for more than a month or 2.

There’s much more to this topic, but you need to digest this for a few days before I tell you what a joke RP355e really is. And why you never truly know what’s in the sealer you purchase in bulk & what’s been left out. If ingredients are left out, your sealer may not meet specs if you must provide samples for analysis. You need to know how to protect yourself. But there is good news. Once you learn about all the NEGATIVE forces and corporate BS working against us PMCs, you can devise a superior sales & marketing “system” to destroy your competitors who boast about federal specs & why their product is THE BEST. And that will assure you get virtually every job you bid!

Re: Best Coal Tar Sealer? Ain't No Such Thing!

From: 
Date: 10/21/00
Time: 9:30:59 PM
Remote Name: 205.188.192.41

Comments

I have to disagree with Bookman on this one. We have used three kinds of sealer. All were from reputable sealer manufactures. Two of them were comparable, no difference. The other one that I wont name did not hold up in the lanes and high traffic areas the way the others did. We had to stop using it. We mixed them all the same way, same percentages of water, sand, the manufactures additive etc...I believe there are differnces in coal tar sealers. Some times small percentages make huge differneces......man shares 98% of his DNA with chimpanzees but that 2% makes a helluva differnce.....just my thoughts....Oh I shall remain anonymous so I dont step on any toes.

Re: Best Coal Tar Sealer? Ain't No Such Thing!

From: Don Turner
Date: 10/22/00
Time: 11:52:26 AM
Remote Name: 208.180.74.170

Comments

Apples and oranges comparisons Bookman. There are differences in the quality of products. A good manufacturer will insure that batch to batch they have the same quality. Premium quality sealers usually have the "rubber" already blended in, so no additives are needed. There are differences in the type of mills used to emulsify the material, processing times and methods, quality of the other ingredients such as emulsifiers, clays, etc. There are also differences in the formulation and types of additives and their suitablility for different purposes. I agree, a trained sealcoater such as myself (and it sounds like Bookman) can take any basic sealer and make it out-perform a job with a high-end product by an unskilled contractor. Also most "standard RP-355E sealers have 47-48% "solids". Premiums usually exceed 50%. However that doesn't say what those solids are, and the ratios of fillers to rubber to coal-tar are different from one brand to another. Yes, all their advertising says about the same thing (isn't that true for all products?)and the term RP-355 really doesn't mean anything anymore. Having spent 16 years developing a reputation as the most expensive sealcoater in our area and being able to do that because our jobs last longer than anyone else's I can say there are big differences in products. (The worst are sometimes the ones made in small batches by local no-name companies for local sale with no quality control. We don't have them here but I've heard some horror stories from the northeast and around Chicago, etc.) One other thing, the way your manufacturer supports you and the service he offers when you need it can be the main deciding factor if the products you are considering are about the same.

Re: Best Coal Tar Sealer? Ain't No Such Thing!

From: Bookman
Date: 10/23/00
Time: 7:24:59 AM
Remote Name: 32.101.71.20

Comments

Hey No Name, don’t worry about Bookman’s toes - I wear steel-toe boots. Part II of this subject will make a lot more sense. My post created a lot of private e-mail and a bit of confusion concerning your response. Let me clarify things. You say “All were from reputable sealer manufacturers.” Yet one clearly wasn't. You THOUGHT they were, like countless other PMCs, & probably based your decision to buy the product on fancy brochures & a great sales pitch. However, I strongly suggest the substandard sealer DID NOT fully meet the specs the manufacturer claimed it did. Remember, my position is that, if all sealers meet RP355e, then there is very little difference between them. But to your credit you switched brands after you realized one didn’t deliver what it promised. You did the right thing. I’m on your side. After all, you are a fellow PMC who gave a portion of your company’s Gold Mine to the substandard manufacturer but all you got in return was THE SHAFT.

Your post brought up a very important point I may have otherwise omitted. Thank you. Here it is. Have you ever noticed that when you call a supplier with a problem they always seem to think WE ARE AT FAULT? I’ll bet the manufacturers told you nobody else was having problems with it! I’ve heard my share of suppliers talk a good line about the support they offer, but I’ve never seen it, nor do I personally know a single contractor who has had a pleasant experience when things went wrong. The most classic example of a manufacturer being at fault was when The Fonz discovered the error in the layout tapes. At first, they didn’t want to correct the mistake but later had no choice when the error became common knowledge.

Don, if you ever have decide to try a new business, I urge you not to open a fruit market. You appear to have a problem with apples and oranges. I couldn’t help but notice some inconsistencies in your post. 1) Your 10/18 comment regarding RP355 specs & your first mention of it in your 10/22 post seem to imply it stands for quality - at least that’s the way I took it, but then you say “...the term RP355 really doesn’t mean anything anymore.” That seems really strange considering all the manufacturers specifically mention it in their brochures. I also doubt the Asphalt Institute would agree with you.

2) If you can find an appreciable difference between a sealer concentrate with 47-48% solids vs. something just a trace over 50%, then I would have to say you’ve got the most amazing pair of eyeballs I’ve ever heard about. And especially once the concentrates are diluted with 25-30% water.

3) You state “Premium quality sealers usually have the ‘rubber’ already blended in so no additives are needed.” In reality, even cheap pail products boast they are “rubberized.” And in order for the manufacturers’ claims to be valid, rubber must be mixed in PRIOR TO BEING SOLD. What were you thinking about?

4) You apparently missed or failed to comprehend a statement I made. Your response was in error. I’m referring specifically to your sentence, “I agree, a trained sealcoater such as myself...can take any basic sealer & make it out-perform a job with a high-end product by an unskilled contractor.” I DID NOT SAY THAT, NOR DID I IMPLY THAT. DO NOT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH. HERE IS WHAT I SAID. “WITH ANY [BRAND] OF [SEALER] I CAN GIVE MY CUSTOMER A SUPERIOR JOB...OR I CAN SELL ‘EM A SNAKE OIL JOB THAT WON’T LAST 2 MONTHS. Any knowledgeable PMC would recognize I could achieve those variables using ANY brand of sealer by simply CONTROLLING the additives and the amount of water. Nowhere did I mention that another contractor could not do as well - skilled or not. And nowhere did I mention using a “High-end or premium grade” of sealer to achieve the superior job. If you carefully reread No Name’s post you’ll see that he did not mention such a scenario either. Where did you come up with this statement?

For you to insist you could deliver a better sealcoating job using what you call a “basic sealer” than an “unskilled contractor using (what you call) a high-end product” seems contradictory to your original position that there are significant differences in the quality of sealer and the “high end product” will deliver a superior job. Sealcoating is not rocket science despite the fact you seem to have a vested interest in presenting it as such. Your persistent rush to judgment & failure to get your facts straight seems to be costing you a good deal of credibility within our industry. I urge you to think carefully before you respond.

Re: Best Coal Tar Sealer? Ain't No Such Thing!

From: Don
Date: 10/23/00
Time: 12:53:54 PM
Remote Name: 208.180.74.170

Comments

Dear “Bookman”, evidently your steel toes are not very thick when it comes to my answers. I try to never insult respondents or questioners in any forum I visit and try to avoid on-going arguments, however since you assault my reputation and credibility I will mention the following facts: (1) I in no way ever implied RP-355 stands for quality. The opposite is true. RP-355E is an out of date, virtually meaningless spec. (as you said, because almost all sealers meet it). It is so out-dated that the FAA for whom the GSA originally instituted the spec. no longer uses it. (Similar to the old P-625 spec. which called for using the “old-fashioned” rubber additives now known to contain carcinogens). Much like federal bumper specifications for cars, which all cars “meet or exceed”. Some do way better in actual crash tests. For the original questioners information RP-355E is a procurement spec. used by the GSA for government contracts. They have thousands of such broad spec.’s for every product the government might ever buy to assure the correct type product is bid. This type spec was never intended as a measure of quality, only of minimum standards and product type. (Just like striping paint’s TTP-1952 spec for example) This also virtually requires all manufacturers to use the line “meets or exceeds RP-355” in their literature to prove that a contractor bidding a government job with that product would be bidding the right type product. (As a fact both of the products I mentioned only use the word exceeds, not “meets”). None of this has anything much to do with the Asphalt Institute. (2) The amount of water added by a contractor does not change the solids content of sealer. All manufacturers specs are based on concentrate gallons. Thus if you add more water you must apply YOUR version of the mix much thicker to meet their specs. Solids are what are left after the water is gone. (Now we would be getting into film thickness, which is what is affected when you over-dilute and spray too thin). (3) Of the two products I mention in my original answer, both clearly define the difference in additive use and rubber content between their own grades of sealer in their literature. Both clearly state not to use additives in the premium products. (4) The difference in 47 and 52% is 5 percent. No I can’t see the difference right after the sealer is applied but anyone can 3 or 4 years later. (5) I did comprehend your statement; I apologize for improperly paraphrasing it. I apologize if I seemed to “put words in your mouth”. I used a hypothetical scenario because I did not want to in any way imply you did “snake oil” jobs. (6) Sealcoating is not rocket science I agree, but for example, there is a big difference in continuos run manufacturing using colloid mills and, and batch manufacturing using shear processing mills. It’s good for a contractor to know the difference and know what a manufacturer uses. (7) I have no vested interest in promoting quality sealcoating, or striping for that matter other than the overall improvement of our industry. You seem to have hostility toward manufacturers in general. If reputable meant all products were exactly the same there would only be one brand of cola. I’m sorry if you mistrust them, but both firms I mentioned give good customer support and one provides a written warranty on the product mentioned. Finally in terms of facts being straight I am pretty sure of at least one thing. I have never met you, spoken to you, or insulted your credibility or answers. I do not hide my identity behind a “handle” like “bookman” (Although I understand the handle choice since your “stripers Bible” is so often promoted here). Some of us don’t mind being who we are and running the risks of taking unwarranted “heat” for expressing our opinions to help others. To the original questioner I recommend attending NPE 2001 in Atlanta. Take some classes, educate yourself, then you can decide with your own education and experience whose sealer is best. And please realize that overall, most of us in the PM industry value courtesy, cooperation, and honest competition with others over contention and hostile competition most anytime.

From: Roy Henry Ruebenstahl, 
Date: 10/28/00
Time: 8:58:04 PM
Remote Name: 32.101.71.57

Comments

Don’t worry about stopping prematurely Ken, this is a very “involved” subject that has severe ramifications for both sealcoaters & stripers. We PMCs need to know how to protect ourselves. With that said, for the sake of those who don’t know me personally & think I’m a Negative Minded or Hostile Personality, I assure you I’m not. But, I’m always on the lookout for Negative LESSONS because that’s how humans (and Don’s 98% DNA Chimps) learn the best and the fastest. If you ever ignored your mama when she warned you about touching anything hot or sharp, you can relate. You’re about the see why I don’t trust a soul when it comes to giving my customers their money’s worth. Since I don’t have many more years left, I want to share this with you.

Late one Saturday afternoon a few years back, I stopped at my suppliers to top off my tank for Sunday sealing. The assistant mgr (I’ll call him Dee) was busy making sealer. I got filled up & looked around for some pails of latex, but didn’t find any. I’ve always been a believer in additives, especially latex, to improve the mediocre product known as RP355e sealer that is so impressive to some contractors. I asked Dee where the latex pails were & he said “We’re all out of 5’s & won’t get any until Tuesday, but you can help yourself to as much as you want out of our barrel.” When I went to the barrel, there wasn’t much left. I looked around but didn’t see any more barrels & didn’t want to run THEM out of latex. I was working on a job I got primarily by educating the customer on ways to protect himself by requesting a sample on-site & having it analyzed BEFORE paying for the job. Since I wrote the bid specs for him, I wasn’t surprised to learn I was the only contractor who bid the job. Naturally, I didn’t want to fail my own job standards if a company “engineer” requested a sample of the tank mix. Usually the samples are not analyzed, but if they are and discovered to fail specs, the contractor isn’t likely to be paid. I asked Dee what to do. “I bid this job at 2%!" Dee said, “NO PROBLEM. Help yourself to as much as you want. You can take it all & I won’t even charge you, but when I run out that won’t stop me from making more sealer.” I was surprised to hear that & eventually asked about the samples they took of every batch & shipped off to the HQ laboratory. Obviously Dee didn’t let many things bother him because once again he said, “NO PROBLEM. NO ONE WILL EVER KNOW, BUT IF SOMEONE DOES FIND OUT THEY WON’T CARE. WE’RE SELLING A LOT OF SEALER.”

At precisely that moment I realized EXACTLY what he was telling me. I was really tired & couldn’t think clearly but suddenly it became obvious. And I realized that I was a complete & total Dumb-Ass for thinking that EVERY batch of sealer would ALWAYS comply with Federal specs - or any other specs for that matter. But I knew I would never again have any faith in the so-called PROFESSIONAL aspects of the PM industry, especially when attending company-sponsored seminars. I love the fact that they charge you to attend and then lie to you. I knew I would never again accept their silly BS at face value, and would have to protect MYSELF and my own business interests in the future.

Was I hostile Don? No, not at all. I had been enlightened, and after all KNOWLEDGE IS POWER. I now realized how my supplier played the game called Business while promoting the idea their ethical standards were above reproach. I couldn’t help but ask Dee what percentage of those batch samples ever got analyzed. He said, “I don’t know, but it’s probably pretty low. Whenever we’ve run out of additives in the past, there's never been a problem.” Wow, now there’s a mouthful worth repeating. . .”WHENEVER WE’VE RUN OUT OF ADDITIVES THERE’S NEVER BEEN A PROBLEM.” So it wasn’t an isolated occurrence! If you’re a sealcoater, I hope you can find as much humor in that statement as I do. But brace yourself for Dee’s next remark. He said, “Besides, the amount of latex in each batch doesn’t amount to Jack. It’s only about 2 gallons!

To be honest, I don’t recall the exact size of their batches. I think it was 1,200 gallons but could have been as low as 1,000. It’s important to know that the size of a batch depends on the size of the company’s mixing tank. But if good ol’ Dee hadn’t volunteered the amount of latex added to each batch, I might not have though to ask.

Are you ready for more? Here is where things get really exciting about the ethical standards of our industry, because it provides valuable insight as to how the power of money can win out over ethics, and how the PMCs get hung out to dry in the process. In other words, “The Good Guys” fail to give us our money’s worth and actually commit fraud in the process.

The manufacturer puts in 2 gallons of latex per 1,000 gallons of sealer if they comply with Spec RP355e, but they urge us to add 1 or 2 gallons per 100 gallons of concentrate for a HIGH QUALITY MIX. That’s 10 to 20 gallons per 1,000 gallon batch or 5 to 10 times MORE than the manufacturer adds. And guess where they expect us to buy these additives? What a neat deal. Is the real reason they want us to add 2% is so they won’t have to add any at all?

At this point my tired brain was beginning to come alive & I said to Dee, let me make sure I’ve got this straight. You could add this 2% latex to each batch YOURSELF at an OEM cost of about $40, but when we do it ourselves it costs us an EXTRA $200? And Dee, God bless him, replied “Hey, what can I tell you? This company is all about making money, but they aren’t sharing very much of it with the people like me who make it for them.” Now there’s an honest employee! I couldn’t resist asking how many of their customers bent over & smiled at him when paying for pails of additives, and he very seriously told me, “None. As far as I know, you’re the ONLY contractor in town who knows what goes on here. And I would appreciate it if you don’t tell anyone else, because I’d probably be fired if the boss found out.” I honored Dee’s request out of respect for his honesty & friendship. After all, he told me what I could expect from his company or any other company for that matter. By the way, Dee was promoted to plant manager shortly after this incident.

Afterward I had 2 primary concerns about my newly acquired knowledge. First, it was obvious Fed spec sealer wasn’t much of a product even if it met specs. So I decided to stop promoting RP355e (or any other spec) to prospective customers. Second, I was bothered by the fact I would NEVER KNOW if the sealer I purchased was missing latex or other ingredients. And if ingredients were missing, how much would the “solids content” be reduced?

This put me in a rage for awhile, but it was because I was mad at myself for being so naive. I had made the error of judging my suppliers by my own standards. When I bid a job according to certain specs the thought of cheating never entered my mind. Not so with my supplier. Here’s what it came down to. The company stood to earn about $650 gross profit from each batch & that figure would accumulate to 12-18 batches per day as long as the good weather held out. That put the manufacturers in a difficult position because if he couldn’t supply us PMCs, we would buy additives elsewhere. Can you really blame him for fudging a bit on ingredients when even Don wouldn’t know it for 3 or 4 years? Of course not.

This sets the stage for Part II of our Professional Development Course in Sealer Quality. But you ain’t seen nothing yet!

Re: Best Coal Tar Sealer? Ain't No Such Thing! DON'T STOP!!!

From: Don Turner
Date: 10/30/00
Time: 3:27:14 PM
Remote Name: 208.180.74.170

Comments

Roy, Nice to know you. Now if we meet at an NPE or something I'll know who I'm talking too. (And I look forward to finding out the name of the low-rent company you describe). I don’t get the remark about chimps. If it’s an insult let me know so I can be really hacked :). Too bad you ran into such an outfit. Personally I have never bothered with a 2% additive mix. (We can start a whole other discussion sometime about why I think 2.5% is a minimum and I’m not trying to split hairs over a half-percent… we just normally use 5% and 2.5% as a minimum when competing with un-modified sealers). I can accept that there are people like you describe out there. Early on when everybody started being required to issue MSD sheets I was amazed to see a product that was advertised as “rubberized” in all its literature had no type of rubber listed anywhere on the MSDS. When I asked the mfg. said “well we used to put it in before we started making the additive. Should sound familiar after hearing your story. By the way to meet good old RP-355E no rubber is required at all, but I won’t continue to discuss that point. When I “spec” a job the spec. is ours. We don’t use RP355 as a reference for anything (as I explained last time). I want everyone to remember what started this thing was our difference of opinion when I gave the names of two particular products I felt were superior to the type junk you and I mentioned above. After all the questioner asked about “the best”. (You replied that there was no best…) My only disagreement with you is that I don’t judge all manufacturers by the actions of those described. STAR for example, requires all licensed manufacturers of their products to sample at least every 10th batch (not tankful) of their Supreme product and submit it to STAR for QC analysis. There is also a difference in the performance characteristics of a rubber which is blended hot into the sealer during the manufacturing process and the performance available from even a higher percentage of “rubber” added by the contractor later in a mix tank to regular sealer. I think what you say about not knowing for 3 or 4 years may be true for the less than reputable manufacturers. But by the same token my opinions are based on watching 100s of jobs as those years went by (and keeping records of the products/additive %s, etc. for each job). Then some of whatever technical knowledge I have came from asking suppliers why their product had proven to be so much better. Also I too don’t agree with paying a manufacturer for a seminar (I never have). That’s why now I usually suggest NPE, because while there may still be some manufacturer influence there, I haven’t seen but a couple of instances of a NPE speaker being biased over the years (and those weren’t about sealer).

Re: Best Coal Tar Sealer? Ain't No Such Thing! DON'T STOP!!!

From: Don
Date: 10/31/00
Time: 8:55:23 AM
Remote Name: 208.180.74.170

Comments

A little ad-on to my earlier statement... As an employer I have become increasingly frustrated by employees that fail to do things correctly no matter what I do or what incentives I offer. I figure I catch about 10% of their screw-ups by accident and the another 10% by my QC efforts (like checking the oil in a machine myself or finding where an employee tracked paint on a sidewalk). But I'm fairly sure a lot gets by me because the employee(s) cover it up. In the situation Roy mentions it sounds like a plant manager and assistant mgr. were not keeping their inventory of ingredients and additives up for their market demands and somebody at the HQ level wasn't doing a good job of quality control so they didn't fear getting caught. This could be because the company owner(s)didn't care and was money hungry as Roy was led to believe by "Dee", or it could be they were trying like I do and employees were covering each others backsides while doing a lousy job. I know one sealer company in my area that used to be a first class outfit. Then their key people left for a better deal with another company (only the owner knows if he could have kept them) Since then their operation here has gone to heck because of lousy employees. It's like daylight to dark, a total change from excellent to terrible, and for whatever reason they can't seem to remedy the problem. Roy is right about being vigilant, you can't go through life with blinders on or you can be taken advantage of. But even with our problems with employees we maintain a good reputation because I really care about quality and service. The same type situations are true for manufacturers as they are for us contractors I'm sure. Some care about customers, some only care about $$.

Re: Best Coal Tar Sealer? Could Bookman be Wrong?

From: Bookman
Date: 11/1/00
Time: 6:42:14 PM
Remote Name: 32.101.71.231

Comments

Surely you know Bookman is never wrong!!! I just wanted to get your attention so you could arm yourself with additional information which supports Don's original post that began this expanded topic. Private e-mail as well as Robert's site indicates many of you think Don & I are at each other's throats. That's not at all the case. I hope you can recognize that Don and I are at a common destiniation in our respective careers, but have traveled different roads to get there. We are 2 entirely different personalities, but we share 2 common bonds: 1) the desire to excel at the services we provide; and 2) the willingness to share the knowledge we've been fortunate enough to learn over a lengthy career. Just remember, there are usually many different ways to run you business and solve problems. The important thing is that we have extreme customer loyalty for one basic reason - we have earned it because we were able to fulfill our customers' expectations. I'd like to think that we far exceeded their expectations.

Robert's site has a group of people with a wide range of knowledge and experience. Some are just beginning to travel the Road of Experience toward journeyman status. I believe this expanded topic will make their journey faster, happier and more profitable.

To assist your Professional Development, it's very important to read "Star Seal Supreme Offers Top-Level Price Point for Niche Sealcoating Customers" in the October/November 2000 issue of Pavement magazine. It begins on pg. 20. The article is written by Pavement Editor Allan Heydorn & if you have never attended the Expo or never been a speaker, you may not know the real Allan Heydorn. In my opinion, everyone in our industry owes Allan much more than we realize. Without him, the Expo would not be anywhere close to what it has become under his leadership.

But back to the article. Maybe Don or Robert could post it for the sake of those who are not yet receiving the magazine. I've got a few comments regarding the article but am too busy to address them for awhile. In the meantime, read the article so we can dicuss it in depth because it will help you run a better business & establish a better clientele. Remember the key to success is QUALITY - Products and Service. Success is all in how you play the game called "business" & every business owner gets to make up his own rules. Some people travel The Road of Experience & cheat at every opportunity. Sometimes it's due to simple ignorance, and/or a persistent refusal to excel at any activity. I believe you'll feel better about yourself if you adopt the U.S.Army slogan "Be all that you can be."

Re: Best Coal Tar Sealer? Could Bookman be Wrong?

From: Don
Date: 11/1/00
Time: 8:11:51 PM
Remote Name: 208.180.74.170

Comments

Well said bookman... The article is very well written (and when I suggested this product I had no idea they were doing the article, I just got my Pavement mag yesterday) The Pavement website doesn't have this month's articles posted yet but as soon as they do I'll post the link for it. If you other guys don't have your FREE subscription, why not? I agree fully about both Alan and Pavement magazine. He's a good friend and has done so much for our industry. (And I finally get to meet Mr. Dubey of STAR in person at NPE 2001 because we're on a panel seminar together... Advanced Sealcoating). What you say about your company and mine is probably true about most of us here... For example I tried Robert's chalk line technique the other day and it works great... and like the article says we charge 50-60% more for premium products and often get jobs where we were the highest bidder. It's that old customer satisfaction thing again. I enjoy a good heated debate on most any subject where the participants are educated and willing to consider all viewpoints. After all-look at the free mini sealcoating course this post created for all the casual observers! I'm looking forward to seeing if that factory guy tells you the same things about striping paint I've heard in the past... but we'll save that one for later.

Re: Best Coal Tar Sealer? Could Bookman be Wrong?

From: Don
Date: 11/1/00
Time: 8:22:10 PM
Remote Name: 208.180.74.170

Comments

PS: If anybody thinks bookman and I were at each other's throats they should have heard me and Alan Curtis (a frequent seminar speaker) get into it at NPE a few years ago about asphalt emulsion VS coal-tar emulsion sealers. (He's from California and wears cowboy boots, that heats up any natural-born Texan to start with... and since they don't have hardly any coal-tar in CA. naturally he thinks there's nothing better than asphalt emulsions.) Now THAT was a heated discussion! I didn't change his mind or he mine, but I still learned a good asphalt repair estimating technique from him in the process.

Re: Best Coal Tar Sealer? Ain't No Such Thing!

From: Bookman
Date: 11/3/00
Time: 6:14:05 AM
Remote Name: 32.101.71.211

Comments

Okay. We’ve covered the problems I personally encountered from a MANUFACTURER. Here I will deal with first-hand experience concerning THE ADDITIONAL REDUCTION IN QUALITY BY A MIDDLEMAN - THE DEALER/DISTRIBUTOR. The problem here may be isolated, as when the supplier finds himself in a short-term financial problem, or it could be a constant on-going practice with every truckload of material he receives. But before I begin, let me set the record straight. Reading over the response to this heading as well as private e-mail, some people may feel that every manufacturer or middleman cheats. I don’t believe that, and that’s not at all the reason I’m covering this topic. I’m exposing these occurrences because its the sealcoater and/or striper who is almost always blamed. Just take my message for what it’s worth. Once you understand what goes on, it will help you from getting caught in the middle when your personal and professional reputation can be damaged, through no fault of your own.

A few years ago, in an attempt to send our normal supplier a “message” a number of local PMCs began buying their sealer from another PMC who had just become a dealer/distributor for a major brand of sealer with a good reputation. The concentrate pumped into our tanks seemed as thick as the other. It “worked” well in all methods of application; however, I noticed it didn’t seem to hold sand quite as well. I use a variety of types & grits for special purpose jobs on steep inclines (which I refer to as HIGH TRACTION sealcoating). Such jobs are a minor portion of my overall work, but it means I don’t view sand as a constant, never changing additive as some PMCs do.

Several weeks later, a competitor whose ethical standards I respected, stopped to warn me that the dealer was apparently watering down the product AFTER delivery. He had stopped by after normal business hours to top off and discovered a water hose running into the bulk tank. Hmmmm, does anyone see a potential problem here? In addition, there was an open pail of their 1-step viscosity builder nearby. The PMC decided to go back to our original supplier. Not long after that, I had essentially the same experience. And once again, it was after normal working hours. Actually, the manufacturer’s tanker was still on site, but had finished pumping, and there was water leaking from the water hose stuck in the man-way of the bulk tank. Soon, many of us were back at our original supplier where we felt more comfortable with an occasional “shortage” due to lack of materials, as opposed to a routine adulteration of the product.

Here’s my main point. Every PMC must recognize the POTENTIAL exists for a MANUFACTURER or DEALER/DISTRIBUTOR to sell a product that is not up to standard specifications (no matter how low they are to begin with). Is this a common, everyday occurrence throughout the country? No, I DON’T THINK SO, especially when dealing with Major manufacturers. It would be unwise and self-defeating to their long-term financial interests. however, since I KNOW it happens and have seen it happen on different levels, I try to protect myself by keen observation, visual as well as sniffing the air and looking around my supplier’s business to see if I smell a rat or see something that indicates “a reasonable man” (an important legal phrase) would suspect he is not getting his money’s worth.

PMCs who buy from a dealer/distributor rather than a manufacturer need to ask yourselves this question: WHAT COULD HAPPEN TO YOUR REPUTATION IF YOUR SUPPLIER UNKNOWINGLY BUYS A SUBSTANDARD PRODUCT FROM A MANUFACTURER AND INTENTIONALLY DILUTES IT AND “BULKS” IT BACK UP WITH A VISCOSITY BUILDER” BEFORE SELLING IT TO YOU?

Looking back, I see the fact that the sealer didn’t seem to hold sand very well was a clue that I should have paid more attention to. So remember a sudden change in the sealer's normal sand retention capabilities should be regarded as a DANGER SIGNAL. Believe me, it won’t be the SAND that suddenly changes its normal characteristics! That means you must do a little detective work and see if you can find out the problem. This will involve looking at The Big Picture as well as each individual step in overall quality control. Fortunately this hasn’t happened to me very often over the past 20 years, yet it could be a common experience - perhaps to the point that a new PMC with no previous experience gets fed up and leaves our industry without every learning there really is a PROFESSIONAL side of the industry.

As recently as 2 years ago, I had a problem with one of several parking lots owned by the same businessman. Within 23 months about 85% of the sealer on one of his lots simply “disappeared” mostly during the second winter season. Yet all of his other lots I had sealed were continuing to deliver 4-5 years of excellent protection. Why? I know my own company did nothing different. I always mix my own tankloads and I’m usually present on every job. An employee never has access to a tank truck where good material can “disappear” and be replaced with water. Job records indicate bad weather had not played a role. The only variable was that it was the first sealing on new pavement, but the pavement was about a year old when I sealed it. Was the customer mad? No, but perhaps disappointed. He was a realistic businessman and I had earned his trust and respect. Besides, he watched the job we did (even bought us lunch) and knew we did everything he had seen us do on previous jobs. Apparently something happened AGAIN at the manufacturer’s level. Imagine that!

If you can accept most, if not all of what I’ve told you, you must conclude that 1) BASE GRADE sealers (RP355e) ain’t much to brag about, and 2) if intentional or inadvertent shortages occur in the manufacturing and/or distribution process, it seems standard procedure for our suppliers to blame us. WE MUST WORK TOGETHER TO REVERSE THIS PRACTICE. I believe we can accomplish this via the internet and at Expo Roundtables by bringing this out into the open. It’s the only way I see of forcing the manufacturers to pay closer attention to their own QC practices before automatically and systematically blaming the PMC.

Don is absolutely correct about RP355e specs not calling for latex. My story involving Dee and the manufacturer actually occurred when RP355d was the spec. It had been my plan to wait until you were hacked off over the 2-gallon per 1,000 gallons the manufacturer put in while urging you to add 10-20 gallons and THEN tell you that RP355e was not an improvement in the specs - at least in regard to latex. From experience in the lawn care industry, I’ve found that ANGRY contractors can become much more interested in reshaping the policies and procedures usually put in place by white collar personnel who do not know the “tradesman” aspects of the industry and all too often aren’t willing to learn!

So by the time this topic is completely presented, I hope all of you are mad as hell and will present this topic at the various Expo roundtables. As I see it, until presented at Expo, it will remain “hidden” even though the “Fraudulent Cat” is now out of its bag drifting in cyberspace where it will pop up at random, but will never again return to the bag. If we can prevail, then at some point in the future I can visualize an Expo seminar entitled “Improving the Ethical Standards of the Pavement Maintenance Industry.” I sure would like to be one of the panel members! Here’s your opportunity Ken to nominate me and the topic. I know you won’t miss that Expo!

Re: Best Coal Tar Sealer? Ain't No Such Thing!

From: Don
Date: 11/3/00
Time: 2:07:33 PM
Remote Name: 208.180.74.170

Comments

Being in an area where we have close proximity to manufacturers I have no experiences with middlemen. However I will say that I once received a sample of a viscosity builder that was being marketed to "sealcoat distributors". As an experiment I took the black water in the bottom of one of our mix tanks (left after flushing the pumps etc.) and added just a couple of spoonfuls of the clear liquid. Within seconds it would have passed for sealer in thickness. Of course that didn't make it sealer just thick black water. That sure made me aware of just how easy it would be for someone to do what you describe and evidently it's not unheard of since the product was being marketed to sealcoaters.

Re: Best Coal Tar Sealer? Ain't No Such Thing!

From: Bookman
Date: 11/25/00
Time: 6:07:02 AM
Remote Name: 166.72.235.80

Comments

There are 2 more potential problems to overcome before a PO/PM gets a quality product DELIVERED to the job site, and these problems involve the SEALCOAT CONTRACTOR.

Problem #1 involves the type of TANK(S) the PMC uses. There are 2 types that pretty much assure the sealer will not be mixed properly. They are: A) one or more 55 gallon drums, and B) a 275 gallon fuel oil tank. Over the years, I’ve seen a lot of contractors and DIYers use drums, but I’ve never seen anyone doing an adequate job of agitating (mixing) the sealer in such containers. Nor have I ever seen anyone using such containers add rubber(s) and/or sand. Without question, a pure latex could be added and mixed in using a stick, paddle or pipe. However, the difficulty of mixing a viscosity builder by hand pretty much prevents ANYONE from attempting it a second time.

The next step up, in terms of substandard mixing capabilities is a gasoline-powered SPARGE LINE agitation system. These are pretty common among home-built tanks or converted lawn spray tanks. Any solution pumped out of the tank but not applied to the pavement is directed back into the tank - usually through a single pipe fitting. The flow produced is very similar to water flowing out of a garden hose. Sparge line agitation systems are adequate ONLY for products that form true SOLUTIONS, OR LIQUID EMULSIONS (check you dictionary for definitions) WHICH DO NOT CONTAIN SOLIDS. However, when solids are involved, it is IMPOSSIBLE to achieve a 100% uniform tank solution. That’s because the relatively narrow stream of recirculated liquid does not cover a very large portion of the bottom of the tank. As the solids fall out of suspension, a buildup occurs in each of the 4 corners of the tank and perhaps 70% or more of the tank’s bottom. And the higher the solids content, the greater the solids buildup in the corners of the tank.

Top of the line agitation systems involve the use of a FULL SWEEP agitation system. These are of 2 types: A) hand powered, and B) engine powered. Hand agitated units CAN do a good job in many instances, but are specifically EXCLUDED from any and all jobs that must meet WRITTEN SPECIFICATIONS. When you consider the modest additional cost of a gasoline-powered agitation/pumping system ($300-$1,000) you must conclude that anyone not possessing such equipment really isn’t a QUALITY-DRIVEN CONTRACTOR. Besides, hand agitated systems are LABOR INTENSIVE and eat into the profit picture of a wise PMC.

Problem #2 involves the KNOWLEDGE and/or the WILLFUL INTENT of the PMC as it relates to the DESIGN MIX of the sealer about to be applied to the pavement. A DESIGN MIX can range from “pitiful dark colored water” up to something that vastly exceeds most federal specs.

Many PMCs have never attended a sealcoat manufacturer’s “school” or an Expo seminar and therefore simply DON’T KNOW HOW GOOD A PRODUCT CAN BE FORMULATED WITH TODAY’S TECHNOLOGY. The flip side involves PMCs who decide to compete on the basis of Low Price or simply like to Cheat. The funny thing is that many times these Low Ball/Cheaters operate with the ENCOURAGEMENT, if not the ENDORSEMENT of the Manufacturer/Distributor! Consider my own true experience. When I began sealing in 1981, all of my work was residential. It was simply an extension of other lawn care/grounds maintenance services we provided. The plant manager of my local branch of a regional manufacturer kept urging me to buy a 1,000-1,500 gallon tank and pursue COMMERCIAL jobs. Yet every time I tried to work out the “numbers” against the prevailing prices in our city that other PMCs charged, I kept coming up with ZERO profit! Finally the plant manager got tired of me being a “slow learner” and said essentially, “Forget the damned high-quality BS. Let me tell you how the Big Dogs play the game. Forget that 25-30% water cut. For every gallon of concentrate, add 1 gallon of water. Bulk it up with a viscosity builder and add lotsa sand. Sand is cheaper than the sealer that it displaces, and it helps increase the life of the coating PROVIDED you don’t over-do it. A 2-coat job will typically deliver 2 years of service in our climate and the customer will probably rehire you because the REAL scumbags add 2 or 3 gallons of water to every gallon of concentrate. Do the math and see what that does to your ‘numbers.’”

Silly me! I had actually believed all that QC stuff I was exposed to during my week-long training session at the Company HQ. Fortunately, within a few years I developed a Good, Better, Best proposal “system” that was so effective I was never able to sell the “good” level of product and service to PO/PMs! My system essentially puts my competitors sales staff to work for ME and the harder they try to sell a cheap job, the more a prospect wants to hire me - but that’s a different story.

Once the contractor gets the product to the job site, he still has several ways to cheat the PO/PM! I’ll cover that in my next installment. For now, I suggest you focus on the problems created by the manufacturer and/or the manufacturer’s “dealers.” These involve producing a substandard product deliberately or accidentally, as well as intentional adulteration of the product by unscrupulous dealers. Also, recognize the fact that some manufacturers/dealers secretly promote applying substandard design mixes. All too often, the manufacturers are concerned with selling as many gallons of sealer as possible. They recognize that low-bid contractors will purchase a significant quantity of sealer, although not as much as the manufacturers would like.

So I urge you to review what I’ve said so far and then check out Don Turner’s web site for Bulletin #46. If you read this over several times, I believe you will recognize a common theme of all of these damned SPECIFICATIONS, which is simply this: First, EVERY SPEC ASSUMES THAT THE PMC RECEIVES A PRODUCT THAT MEETS SPECS FOR NO OTHER REASON THAN THE MANUFACTURER’S BROCHURE(S) CLAIM THE SPECS ARE MET. And second, IT IS ALWAYS PRESUMED THE CONTRACTOR IS THE BAD GUY WHO MUST BE CAREFULLY WATCHED THROUGHOUT THE JOB.

 

Coal tar, overspray and boats....

From: BobbyTox
Date: 10/27/00
Time: 3:53:32 PM
Remote Name: 152.163.204.182

Comments

Im hoping I can get some advice on this one. I did a sealcoating job about 5 weeks ago and a boat dealership was next door. They called me yesterday stating that I had tar (overspray)on the boats and that they didnt find out until they took them to a boat show. I havent looked at the boats and wont be able to until next week. Does anyone know how I might go about removing the tar if I am liable. The part that worries me is the "gel coat", I dont want to damage that removing tar. Any suggestions , thanks.

Re: Coal tar, overspray and boats....

From: Kenny B
Date: 10/27/00
Time: 5:49:31 PM
Remote Name: 64.12.104.169

Comments

Go to your local auto parts store, and purchace a can of bug & tar remover and give it that a try. It worked for me once, plus it it formulated fo todays paint finishs so you should be safe, I would read the can 1st to be sure.

Kenny B

Re: Coal tar, overspray and boats....

From: Don
Date: 10/28/00
Time: 9:48:01 AM
Remote Name: 208.180.74.170

Comments

You're right to worry. I would suggest one of the newer citrus formulas rather that conventional bug and tar removers (most of them don't cut coal-tar well)but do read the labels and do an unseen "test" area before using anything. I feel for you, we had a now ex-employee disconnect a spray hose with pressure on it right next to the new cars waiting to be delivered to customers at a car dealership we were doing this summer. The whole crew spent the rest of the day cleaning cars.

Re: Coal tar, overspray and boats....

From: Fonz
Date: 10/28/00
Time: 12:33:39 PM
Remote Name: 63.212.149.37

Comments

On a test spot try WD40. I hear it really works, but I never tried it. The car washes around here use it for bugs and tar. Give it a try, but I repeat, a test spot only.

Re: Coal tar, overspray and boats....

From: Bookman
Date: 10/28/00
Time: 1:38:14 PM
Remote Name: 32.101.71.12

Comments

Uh oh, you’re in deep black stuff. First, I would urge you to go to the show (if it’s still on) and check things out for yourself to see how bad it really is. If it’s bad, you’ll need to contact your general liability insurance co. If it’s not so bad-just a few tiny specs-you’re going to lose a bunch of time cleaning the boats. Of course, there is the possibility it isn’t your sealer at all. Play Sherlocke Holmes & see if you think this could be from your job. Used car dealers pull this trick from time to time in an attempt to get money from you or your insurance co. Second, you need the right product & the right removal “system.” Kenny B’s suggestion may be your best starting point if damage is slight. If it’s extensive, I suggest using Oil Flow™ in a spray bottle. It works VERY fast - much much faster than the automotive bug & tar remover. Test it in a small spot! I use Oil Flow Safety Solvent Cleaner to remove sealer & crack filler from my white truck without problem. However, if you leave the sealer on too long before removing, it can leave a trace of yellowish stain behind that will never come off. My nephew uses it extensively in his auto tune-up shop to remove grease & oil from customer’s cars. But I don’t know about gel coat finishes. Call Harvey at Titan Labs 1-800-475-3300 for full brochures & MSD sheet, or give me your snail mail address & I’ll send the brochures & instructions to you. DON’T let this touch “black chrome” or black vinyl trim on car/truck grills. If you use Oil Flow, stock up on paper towls & change them frequently. Let me pass on the best advice I ever received from one of my multi-millionaire customers. “Always approach each job looking for reasons to DECLINE it.” And the potential for damage is one of the top reasons for avoiding a job. You could also substitute squeegie or brush applications, use masking boards or tarps, or wait for a day with no wind. Good luck, let us know what works for you. P.S. Oil-Flow is the only product good enough to be mentioned in my Other Bible for sealcoaters.

Re: Coal tar, overspray and boats....

From: Don
Date: 10/28/00
Time: 6:32:44 PM
Remote Name: 208.180.74.170

Comments

The WD40 suggested by Fonz most likley won't work in this case. The Titan product mentioned by bookman is good but like he said test it for gelcoat. There is also another product I tried that competes with the Titan product but I don't recall the name. On some items there is a "scrub" towel from Grainger that cuts sealer well. It absorbes into the special towel fabric and doesn't spread around. The ones I've used have an abrasive side and a regular side... use the smooth side if you try them on your problem (the abrasive side is great for removing sealer from hands, shoes etc.)Athough I advised citrus products in my 1st post about liquid removers, the citrus type towels don't work anywhere near as good as these from Grainger. And as said by someone else "an ounce of prevention...."

Re: Coal tar, overspray and boats....Found something even better

From: Bookman
Date: 10/28/00
Time: 9:31:14 PM
Remote Name: 32.101.71.57

Comments

I picked up a sample of TAMKO Industrial Strength Cleaner/Degreaser that I suspect I got at Expo 200. It's label says "Roofer's Helper." Tried it tonight on a white truck that has about 60 days worth of sealer built up. This is the best, fastest acting product I've ever encountered. It works equally well (fast) on thin sealer stains or heavy "globbers" of sealer. Plus it smells good. By all means check it out. TAMKO Roofing Products, www.tamko.com, 1-800-641-4691, P O Box 1404, Joplin, MO 64802. P.S. If you decide to use a citrus cleaner, there are 2 completely different formulations of citrus cleaners. One contains pumice, the other does not. Do not use one containing pumice (volcanic glass) because it will leave a mark & possibly damage the finish. Sorry you're having the problem, but appreciate your posting it.

Re: Coal tar, overspray and boats....

From: Fonz
Date: 10/29/00
Time: 1:43:12 AM
Remote Name: 63.212.147.25

Comments

OK guys, her's my best advise. Never ever spray sealer on an automobile distributership lot. My sons have a small seal-coat business and I absolutely forbid them to use their spray equipment to seal their lot.......WHY??......because twice in two years I've seen cheap bronze-cast valves sold at "the local Ace Hardware" explode under pressure and send a stream of sealer 30 feet into the air. Within minutes a million dollars of new vehicles could be damaged to the point where your insurance or you would be liable.........Brush or squeegee the stuff on.........forget about the spray around new vehicles!!! Just tooooooo damn dangerous!!

 

Re: Coal tar, overspray and boats....

From: Don
Date: 10/29/00
Time: 11:57:55 AM
Remote Name: 208.180.74.170

Comments

Let the Fonz’s words be a reminder, especially for folks who do sealing "right" with sand. Spend the money on hardened steel valves and leave the typical hardware store stuff alone. The sand eats them up quick and weakens them like he said. We only use cheaper valves for non-pressure connections.It's also important to use full bore valves and open them all the way. Of course you've also got to watch your hoses and other couplings for wear daily. You'll like this one Fonz... same car dealership where the guy popped the hose connector & splattered the cars, another guy doing squeegee coat next to a freshly painted wall (safe right?) slips with bucket and splashes sealer 4 feet up the wall! Accidents can happen no matter what, but we’ve successfully sprayed a lot of car dealerships. If there’s a worry about over-spray from wind etc. I’ll put a guy holding a white sheet between the work and the cars, but closer to the work. Then his only job is to stop the spraying immediately if he notices even a tiny speck on the sheet. We also try to do car lots in late summer before the new models arrive and the inventory is lower so they can give you more room to work.

[_borders/disc13_aftr.htm]

Re: Coal tar, overspray and boats....

From: SPRAYMAN110
Date: 10/29/00
Time: 1:38:53 PM
Remote Name: 205.188.200.39

Comments

I us a product called ZZZERO. Good stuff. J&N DISTRIBUTERS,VIRGINIA BEACH,VA 1-800-543-35521-804-473-0510,manufactured by Mcclure Chemical co.

Re: Coal tar, overspray and boats....

From: SPRAYMAN110
Date: 10/29/00
Time: 1:38:53 PM
Remote Name: 205.188.200.39

Comments

I us a product called ZZZERO. Good stuff. J&N DISTRIBUTERS,VIRGINIA BEACH,VA 1-800-543-35521-804-473-0510,manufactured by Mcclure Chemical co.

 

UPDATE to "Coal tar, overspray and boats"

From: BobbyTox
Date: 11/2/00
Time: 11:45:51 PM
Remote Name: 152.163.206.182

Comments

First off I want to thank all of you for your help and suggestions on this matter, its been very helpful. I went and looked at the boats Wednesday. First off, they said I couldnt see the boats till then because they were in a boat show. Well when I got there he took me around to each boat (6 of them) and I examined them. Each boat had about 1/4 inch of dirt (ok maybe not that much but they were dirty) on it and had to be wiped clean with a towel (I thought they were just in a boat show???). Well what I saw was about as next too nothing as you can get, I had to get six inches from it to see anything and the only place on the boats was at the bow, right at the point and nowhere else, and when I say next to nothing I mean it....I could have spit on a towel and wiped it off but anyway. As we walked around the manager, who I might add is a 25-26 year old arrogant punk started making comments like "we tried everything to get that off" "Are you licensed and bonded" "were going to have to have these sanded and repainted and re gelcoated" etc.....then some clown from the shop came out and said "we cant get it off, we tried acetone"...Well at the suggestion of someone on here, perhaps it was Don I dont know but I went to Grainger and got some of those wipes to try and see if it would do the trick. I had tried them out on my old work truck and they worked very well. I asked him if I could test a spot and see, he adamantly refused. I then suggested that I would crawl under the boat and just rub a little on the keel. He said "Nothings going on these boats until I know its safe". Well I think you know by now, Ive got someone who wants to collect about 25,000 dollars for a couple of sprinkles of nothing and then go out there with some soap and water and wash it all off. There are so many inconsistencies in there story, examples. The claim they have a bill for labor to clean the lot of dirt and debris after we did the job and for equipment rentals. If thats the case why when they came to work the next day didnt they call me and complain, instead they called me 5 weeks after the job was done to tell me this. I did this job 5 weeks ago and they just noticed this overspray? By his own admission the boats have been in shows, two have been in the water and he made the comment (Can you say "contaminated crime scene" lol) that "why didnt you give us warning, when the roofers did the roof they came over 4 days prior and told us they would be doing it and that there could be some overspray, you didnt tell us anything". But what scares me is the fact that I sense strongly that they want to make a "big haul' here, they wont even let me do anything to the boats. Theres a good chance I am responsible but by the same token, I could use some dishwashing liquid and a rag and in an hour or two be done but they wont even let me do that. When someone talks about "sanding, repainting and gelcoating" six boats for something like this, something is up. Im not sure what im going to do, ive thought about trying again to offer the clean them but I think I may just see what they do, Ill have to play it by ear. I think they will take me to court over this and I will have to plunk down a grand for a lawyer but I think Id rather take my chances with a judge than with them, they are just to suspicous. Ill keep you guys posted.

Re: UPDATE to "Coal tar, overspray and boats"

From: Sprayman110
Date: 11/3/00
Time: 12:47:06 AM
Remote Name: 152.163.207.61

Comments

Try the cloth on a friends boat (on the bottom where you con't see it or won't hurt it). Put some sealcoat on a brush and splater it on. LET IT DRY FOR A FEW DAYS. Then take your cleaner and try it, if it cleans it, tell the boat co. that you use the cleaner all the time, and if he won'tlet you clean it, tell him he can go fly a kite. The cleaner I use, I clean my truck and trailer with 2 or 3 times a week,and hasn't hurt it. It cleans everything, tar, oil, bugs, I even use it to clean my stencils.

Re: UPDATE to "Coal tar, overspray and boats"

From: Bookman
Date: 11/3/00
Time: 6:17:42 AM
Remote Name: 32.101.71.211

Comments

You need a good lawyer & you need one fast. It's the lesser of 2 evils & won't cost you as much as the boat dealer's scheme! If you have liability insurance you need to notify them and they will take care of it. From this point on, carry a tape recorder with you when talking to the dealer.

Re: UPDATE to "Coal tar, overspray and boats"

From: Bob
Date: 11/3/00
Time: 9:39:56 AM
Remote Name: 12.13.79.2

Comments

Bobby, I agree with Bookman regarding the insurance. Call your agent and let them know what this boat sales company has expressed. They will probably tell you not to contact them again. As for the legal aspect let the insurance company deal with it if at all possible. That is why we have to carry general liability insurance. The reason I say this is two years ago I had an individual express that one of my people damaged their car with our pressure washer. When I contacted my insurance agent they expressed that they would send out a claimes agent to look into the situation. It came out that this individual was atempting to make a false claim, sound like some thing you have heard. The insurance claimes agent expressed that their was know damage caused by my company and that if the individual wished to continue the claim their legal department would be the ones to contact. The individual droped the claim. Hope this give you some support and help. Bob

Re: UPDATE to "Coal tar, overspray and boats"

From: Eric
Date: 11/17/00
Time: 5:10:17 PM
Remote Name: 207.172.11.233

Comments

I am interested in getting into the stiping business and I am reading all of your posts to educate myself. I am currently in the Car Wash and Detailing business. The stuf that will remove and contamintes from any painted surface is Clay. If you go and explain your situation to any good auto detailer they can explain the process to you. I often use the clay process on cars that have overspray from being in a body shop.

 

Coal Tar Sealer: what spec. to use?

From: Don
Date: 11/13/00
Time: 10:48:43 AM
Remote Name: 208.180.74.170

Comments

For anyone who might be interested after Bookman and my recent lengthy discussion about coal-tar spec.’s (among other things) here's a link to Engineering Brief #46 which superceded Federal Spec. P-625 in 1991. P-625 had replaced the old RP-355 based spec.’s for airport use applications before that (that change reflected the former use of the carcinogenic additives I mentioned). Remember this spec. is for FAA type airport projects and do not necessarily apply to regular sealcoating jobs. But for some light :) reading you can find them athttp://www.pavementpro.org/sealcoat_engbrief46.htm

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Re: Coal Tar Sealer: what spec. to use?

From: SPRAYMAN110
Date: 11/15/00
Time: 12:07:21 AM
Remote Name: 152.163.213.63

Comments

I read the so called acting managers brief #46. I also read the page you have on your site. 1. Why is RP-355 on your site if it has been replaced by P-625? 2. I question the (QUALITY CONTROL)625.1 Contractors certification meets spec. RP-355 except water content shall not exceed 50 percent. Does that qualify him for P-625? Joe

Re: Coal Tar Sealer: what spec. to use?

From: SPRAYMAN110
Date: 11/15/00
Time: 12:07:21 AM
Remote Name: 152.163.213.63

Comments

I read the so called acting managers brief #46. I also read the page you have on your site. 1. Why is RP-355 on your site if it has been replaced by P-625? 2. I question the (QUALITY CONTROL)625.1 Contractors certification meets spec. RP-355 except water content shall not exceed 50 percent. Does that qualify him for P-625? Joe

Re: Coal Tar Sealer: what spec. to use?

From: Don
Date: 11/15/00
Time: 9:44:13 AM
Remote Name: 208.180.74.36

Comments

Sorry Joe, the bad experience I mentioned happened to Bookman of course, not Sprayman (old age, my eyes are going). Also the contactor's certification you refer to is actually a manufacturer's certification that the contractor must furnish. The wording is kind-of misleading like most government documents.

 

Sealcoating Temps

From: noahsark_01247
Date: 1/10/01
Time: 10:37:02 AM
Remote Name: 63.26.148.1

Comments

It has been my understanding that sealcoating shouldnot be performed under 60*, and over 95*, and the reasoning for this is drying conditions. Am I in the proper direction by stating this as a fact?

Re: Sealcoating

From: Donopinionated :)
Date: 1/11/01
Time: 11:06:29 AM
Remote Name: 64.57.224.18

Comments

You're in a good range. It is generally accepted that 50 degrees and rising is a minimum. The problem is the "and rising". For example here we've been having weather where the reports show a high of 57. But that was only a couple of hours mid-afternoon. Not enough time for sealer to cure. It also must not freeze within 24 hrs. preferably 48 after application. Some companies make additives that accelerate drying and can stretch these limits a little. In general asphalt emulsions require warmer weather. The high temp. is determined by the pavement temperature (if we couldn't seal at 95 in Texas we'd loose 4 months out of the season) At 90+ temperatures in direct sun pavement must often be misted with water immediately prior to sealing to cool the surface. If the pavement is too hot the sealer can cook onto the surface before it has a chance to bond. Both extremes have more to do with a proper cure as opposed to just drying. Note: These parameters do not apply to Gilsonite (solvent) based sealer but that's uncommon and a whole other type product. So as not to appear too opinionated :) again try this linkhttp://www.pavementpro.org/coaltar.htm and look for the temperature section.

Slurry Sealing

From: RP Parking Services
Date: 2/29/00
Time: 7:25:23 PM
Remote Name: 205.188.199.43

Comments

Do any of you guy's sealcoat in addition to striping ? And if so have any of you heard of slurry sealing? If so can anyone tell me what it is and how you go about doing it? Thanks, in advance for your help.

Re: Slurry Sealing

From: MI Striper
Date: 2/29/00
Time: 10:32:35 PM
Remote Name: 216.46.203.178

Comments

I don't know much about this but if it's the same process the state and some counties in Michigan use (they call it slurry sealing) it's like striping a granola bar and looks about as good when you finish. A real pain in the butt. Good Luck, Mike

Re: Slurry Sealing

From: Freestate
Date: 3/1/00
Time: 1:05:47 AM
Remote Name: 205.188.197.151

Comments

I do sealcoating in addition to striping. Slurry coating is a bit more involved and equipment intensive. sand different stones and special truck that meters it all as it goes down. The recent pavement Maintenance magazine had a article in it. It does do a much better job than sealcoating. But looking at the equipment its at least 100,000 dolars to get going .

Re: Slurry Sealing

From: Don
Date: 3/1/00
Time: 9:30:18 AM
Remote Name: 208.134.151.229

Comments

There are several things that fall into the broad topic of slurry sealing. Sand slurries are made using conventional sealcoat materials such as coal-tar emulsions, fortified with additives and a very high sand content (5-8 lbs. per gallon) they can be applied by regular sealcoating machines, give a new attractive appearance, and properly done do not "track" onto walks, shoes etc. Conventional slurry comes in Types I,II,III, and microsurfacing. The different types are based on the size aggregates. These are made as they are applied by specialized truck mounted or self propelled machines... an easy $125,000 and up plus support trucks, sweepers, loaders, oil tankers, etc. They are not generally used in parking situations because they tend to track in warm weather. They are generally used on streets and frequently on airport runways to preserve the surface and restore traction quality. How "good" they look is very dependent on the contractor's skill and the grade of material. Being asphalt based the material will turn gray with age.

Re: Slurry Sealing

From: Bookman This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Date: 3/1/00
Time: 7:00:10 PM
Remote Name: 32.101.71.147

Comments

About 15 years ago I was convinced by my SealMaster rep to get into slurry sealing, primarily roadways. So I went to a big show at their HQ in Sandusky, OH. Every piece of equipment they had was referred to as a PROTOTYPE. The president attempted to show a sample of the black goo that formed the slurry. Unfortunately for him, but fortunately for those of us who were considering slurry sealing, he couldn't get his release paper to release from the goo, and he ended up looking like a fool. The whole meeting went down in flames. I never heard my rep mention slurry sealing again, and never saw the prototype equipment offered for sale. My point is that slurry sealing can be very temperamental, and it's not for everyone. Those who attended that meeting were considered to be among the best contractors in the country. The criteria seemed to be contractors who did not create their own problems with coal tar or asphalt emulsions - which are much more forgiving sealants. I went to the meeting expecting to make a $50,000 expenditure, so it seems the $100,000+ minimum today sounds about right. In KY, slurry sealing is more confined to subdivision roadways, expecially in hilly areas where the drak black color helps to melt snow and ice and the granite aggregate provides traction. I doubt the contractor makes enough money from it to justify offering the services. But once you're stuck with the equipment what are you going to do? If your motivation is a long-lasting, excellent traction sealcoating on driveways and parking lots, you might investigate 2 or preferably 3 coat coal tar emulsion jobs with a 30% water cut and 2% nitrile rubber admixture or an equilavent viscosity builder. You can get started for about $3500 if you intend to brush or squeegy it on, or about $3,000 more for a sprayer. There is an excellent market for this service among elderly people who are afraid to walk on slick asphalt driveways. Last year I played around with up to 5 different size sand aggregates in the first 2 coats, and a clear coat on top. These should last 3-5 years on residential driveways, depending on the driving habits of the residents. I had a 3-coat parking lot about 3 blocks from the Louisville Expo and forgot to mention it to anyone–sorry. This year, I'm going to play with some other aggregates like quartz, granite, and aluminum oxide. I see a huge market for 3 coat sealing jobs among people who are attempting to sell their homes and their driveways are close to the point of needing a recap. If you don't have a steep driveway, 3 of the finer grits and a 24" floor broom application can provide a finish so good that most people consider it as being REPAVED! I showed up to put a 3rd coat on a driveway and found an 8-man paving crew down on their hands and knees rubbing the surface. They weren't even embarrassed when I pulled up. The owner asked what the hell was I doing and why was I trying to put him out of business. He used the same brand of sealer (SealMaster coal tar) but had never seen anything like it. I told him exactly what I had in the tank and he watched us apply the 3rd coat, but I know he didn't believe me. If anyone is interested in pursuing this, give me a call at 502-743-5953 after 7PM EST. It's not in my sealing book at this time, but I intend to submit a column about it to Pavement magazine later this year. I recommend it to anyone who is having trouble getting started in sealing and/or striping, because you can get a lot of work very quickly. There is absolutely no competition. I've told several local contractors EXACTLY how to do it, but none of them offer it. Apparently, they can't get out of the LOW BID/FAST APPLICATION mentality. By the end of last season, I had about 30 people who called for an estimate after seeing their friends or neighbors places, but it was too late. You've got to have warm weather, 70° or better to get the results you want. THIS IS NOT A SERVICE YOU WANT TO PURSUE IF YOU ALWAYS TAKE SHORTCUTS AND CHEAT ON MATERIALS AND QUALITY. Sorry to be so long-winded.

Acrylic Sealer

From: WNC
Date: 6/14/00
Time: 10:56:31 PM
Remote Name: 205.188.197.47

Comments

This is for you guys who do seal coating. What can you tell me about acrylic sealers, pros and cons. Talking with a fellow in Canada who claims to have been using it, no problem, for 10+ years. Thanks for your input.

Re: Acrylic Sealer

From: Bookman
Date: 6/15/00
Time: 5:38:48 PM
Remote Name: 32.101.71.74

Comments

Years ago I looked forward to an alternative to coal tar and asphalt emulsions, but when I learned how THIN the acrylic coating was in comparision, I pretty much dismissed it. If you can still talke to the Canadian, ask him what his recoating intervals are for residential as well as commercial pavement. Unless the acrylic contains Cryptonite & the guy wears a Superman outfit, I just don't see how it can last very long in areas of high traffic, especially at parking lot entrances at roadways with speed limits of 45 mph, specifically where sand & gravel deposits will increase the abrasion effect of vehicles' tires. From the standpoint of comfort and health, it certainly would be the way to go if it holds up long enough to meet the customers' expectations. On the downside, I don't see how it could possibly hold a traction grit. That would seem to be a popular additive in Canada. Let us know what you can find out from the Canadian.

Re: Acrylic Sealer

From: Don
Date: 6/16/00
Time: 6:00:14 AM
Remote Name: 205.218.118.139

Comments

I agree totally with Bookman. It's a gimmick made in Canada and promoted by the company that makes the "special" sprayer you supposedly must have to put it down. They tried the US market a few years ago... it was a flash in the pan that never caught on. I never could figure out what was "acrylic" about it. When you've been in the business as long as I have you realize these type gimmick products come and go evry couple of years... just somebody new claiming to have reinvented the wheel. The best one I've seen was an outfit around here using...now get this... a cement based striping material! Was supposed to be permanent. Sold it to some suckers for $1.00 a foot for 4" stripes. Were long gone with the money a couple of months later when the stuff peeled up, flaked off, etc. Maybe they learned something.

Re: Acrylic Sealer

From: Bookman
Date: 6/19/00
Time: 7:34:34 PM
Remote Name: 32.101.71.247

Comments

Don't rat me out Don. I'm currently living in Brazil & won't return to try my next scam until the statute of limitations has run out. By the way, It was $1.25/foot, but I gave a nickel a foot to Fonz' favorite charity.

I had heard Rohm & Haas (USA) was working to develop acrylic sealer well over a decade ago. But at the Atlanta Expo ('99) it appeared to be so thin I don't see how it can work. As I recall the application rate was something like 200 sq. ft./gallon and it cost a small fortune. If you don't rigidly control your application rate you'll go broke pretty fast. I doubt I could ever trust a work crew to do a job without me on site to monitor coverage.

Re: Acrylic Sealer

From: WNC
Date: 6/20/00
Time: 7:17:26 PM
Remote Name: 205.188.193.188

Comments

Got more info from distributor...only recommended for low traffic areas(homeowners). Claims that slipping is not a big problem...Hmmm?? Asked him to define big. Also asked "not a big problem for whom".Distributor, applicator or home owner. No response to that question.

Sealcoating peeling off

From: Tru-Trac
Date: 6/18/00
Time: 7:16:56 AM
Remote Name: 152.163.197.204

Comments

I ran into a problem this year and sure could use some advice. Last fall I stripped a lot That was just sealcoated. This Spring I checked the lot and it still looked good. This week the sealcoater called and said the paint was peeling off. When I checked the job he was right. Here is my Question, upon examining the lot it looked more like the sealcoating was peeling off the old lines underneath. My paint appeared to be sticking to the sealcoat. You could see that the places were my lines were not on top of the old lines the sealcoating was coming off. Has anyone every had this happen to them.

Re: Sealcoating

From: BobbyTox
Date: 6/18/00
Time: 10:22:45 AM
Remote Name: 152.163.197.79

Comments

Your right, sealer doesnt like to stick to old stripes, especially if there built up, so it was probably coming off of the old stripe and your stripe being on top caused it to peel off as well...I recently did a seal job where they changed the layout of the parking lot and just sealed right over the old lines and in about a years time they had a wonderful "checkerboard" affect...We went thru and blacked out all the old lines with black paint and then sealed back over them...I always discourage property owners from changing the layout of a parking lot, unless the old lines are almost gone because the sealer wont stick to them.....

Re: Sealcoating

From: Freestate
Date: 6/18/00
Time: 9:30:35 PM
Remote Name: 205.188.197.161

Comments

Or the sealcoat was a product we call in Maryland "gilsonite" it is a paint it doesnt last long and especially the stripes dont last I striped for a guy that used this stuff , never again

Re: Sealcoating

From: Don
Date: 6/19/00
Time: 10:08:09 AM
Remote Name: 205.218.118.139

Comments

Well said Bobby, The BEST advice is to not change layouts unless absolutley necessary and to let the stripes wear as much as possible before sealing. Other "tricks"... the sealcoater can use a power wire brush (Billy Goat Slot Machine type) to rough the stripes prior to sealing, also you can coat the old stripes with oil spot primer. A lot of times it's because the old stripes aren't stuck to the older stripes underneath. Like where someone has restriped with oil base over latex or such. Then the whole thing can peel. Remember to always use latex or waterborne paints with sealcoating, anything else is asking for trouble.

Re: Sealcoating

From: TomTom
Date: 7/8/00
Time: 11:07:40 AM
Remote Name: 209.23.17.79

Comments

I have striped a few different lots that my stripes have come off. Thank god not a very many of them. The sealcoat has come off of the lot not only where my stripes were but the whole lot. When I was striping I noticed that the paint had sealcoat in it as I striped. Black spots all through my paint. This has happened on all three jobs that paint came off the lots. Also on all the jobs the sealcoat looked as if it was coal dust in the bottem of a coal bin. I could sweep it as you would fine dust or powder on a floor. I am not sure but it looked to me as if it had been frozen and seperated to have this happen. Just my observation.

 

Tack Coat on Old Stripes BEFORE sealcoating?

From: Bookman
Date: 6/19/00
Time: 7:23:50 PM
Remote Name: 32.101.71.247

Comments

Hey! The posts of Tru-Trac, Bobby Tox & a quart of Mad Dog 20/20 wine (vintage June 6, 2000) got me thinking. There is always an adhesion problem with sealer (coal tar & asphalt emulsion) being applied over striping paint, both alkyd & latex - the only 2 types of paint I use.

SealMaster makes a product called "tack coat" used primarily on dusty or lightly silted pavement, as well as bonding agent for its product called Levelmaster. I haven't used it for over 10 years for 2 reasons: 1) it's too damned expensive for large areas and 2) I use a pressure washer on dust, dirt, and silt covered pavement instead.

For what it's worth, I always decline bidding on jobs where I KNOW long-term adhesion will be a problem. But I can't help but wonder if this product wouldn't help improve the bond of sealer to the old stripes and markings. This wouldn't add much of a cost to the job & be a pretty neat learning experience for contractors.

Re: Tack Coat on Old Stripes BEFORE sealcoating?

From: Don
Date: 6/20/00
Time: 7:46:58 AM
Remote Name: 205.218.118.139

Comments

The only "tack coat" product in the new Sealmaster catalog is called "Asphalt Binder" and is basically a diluted asphalt emulsion. There is a possibility it could work with asphalt emulsion type sealers but only if it was very, very thin. I have been in the sealcoating business as long as the striping side (15+ years)using all types of paint & sealers and have never had the problem you describe with adhesion to old stripes. I'm always curious about such things... since it seems to be a common problem some of you run into. The only thing we do sometimes is if the stripe still has a lot of wear left and the parking lot has an overall oily film, we spray the stripe very lightly with an acrylic oil spot primer (from the sealer mfg.) since oil frequently drips on stripes too. In every job I have been called in to consult on where the sealer failed to adhere, the problem was ALWAYS in some way related to inadequate cleaning or surface preparation by the sealcoater. Have any of you discussed this stripe/adhesion problem with a sealer mfg.? I'd be interested to hear what their idea was about it.

Re: Tack Coat on Old Stripes BEFORE sealcoating?

From: Robert Liles
Date: 6/20/00
Time: 6:42:46 PM
Remote Name: 205.218.118.139

Comments

What I have done before sealcoating over fairly new striping is to blackout the existing lines with paint first. The paint bonds to it's self well and as the sealer wears (or peels) the old stripes don't show as quickly.

Re: Tack Coat on Old Stripes BEFORE sealcoating?

From: City
Date: 6/20/00
Time: 7:58:21 PM
Remote Name: 205.188.200.56

Comments

The only time i had a problem was when i striped over sealcoat at a dunkin donuts. At the top of the slightly pitched lot sat a dumpster where numerous dried coffee stained rivers had once flowed from it leaving an oily residue over the entire lot. needless to say i was asked to return to the columbian waste dump to re-stripe it because the markings were lifting and floating away. A short few months later i returned to the scene of the crime only to discover all the sealcoat had seemed to dissapear along with my stripes. Only this time someone elses stripes lay in their place

 

Sealcoating

From: 
Date: 7/10/00
Time: 8:38:26 AM
Remote Name: 209.23.17.204

Comments

What would make sealcoat flake off into the paint when striping? There are black spots all over the paint. Looks like it has seperated resembles coal dust in the bottem of a coal bin. Could this come from the sealer being frozen/

Re: Sealcoating

From: sprayman110
Date: 7/10/00
Time: 8:25:22 PM
Remote Name: 205.188.200.201

Comments

WHAT TYPE MACHINE DID YOU USE? ARE THER TREES AROUND THE AREA YOU STRIPED? DID YOU BLOW THE LOT OFF FIRST? IF YOU DID, IT MIGHT BE COAL TAR, BUT FROM TREES. THE REASON I ASKED IS. I JUST WENT TO MOVE MY TRUCK,AND THERE WAS SAP FROM THE TREES ON IT!!!!!!!!!!------- IT IT COAL TAR ALSO.

Re: Sealcoating

From: 
Date: 7/11/00
Time: 5:52:06 AM
Remote Name: 208.20.92.21

Comments

I use a graco striper. There are no trees in site. I striped the next day after they sealed the lot. Also where the cars set and there are oil spots the sealer had pealed up like a layer of skin. What do you think might be the cause?

Re: Sealcoating

From: Don
Date: 7/11/00
Time: 1:29:11 PM
Remote Name: 205.218.118.139

Comments

If the sealer was frozen it will flake like tiny "fish food" flakes. Once any emulsion (or paint) freezes it's ruined. Other than that it sounds like somebody did a lousy sealing job and it's not sticking to the asphalt well. Thus your airless is blasting flakes of it loose and up into the paint. Sounds like the lot may have had an oil-film which is hard to clean prior to sealing. I assume you are using latex.

Re: Sealcoating

From: 
Date: 7/11/00
Time: 2:21:38 PM
Remote Name: 209.23.17.139

Comments

Thanks Don for the reply. That is exactaly what the sealer looks like. I was pretty sure that it had been frozen as I have done a couple of other lots that have looked the same. Yes I used laytex paint on the lot.

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Re: Sealcoating

From: Freestate
Date: 7/11/00
Time: 7:49:45 PM
Remote Name: 152.163.204.17

Comments

I am just wondering who would have had sealcoat left that had frozen. I think its July now.

Re: Sealcoating

Date: 7/12/00
Time: 8:32:28 AM
Remote Name: 208.20.92.76

Comments

Nuf said! Temp around 45 degrees this morning at 5AM. I'll keep quiet no more questions?

Re: Sealcoating

From: Don
Date: 7/12/00
Time: 9:01:20 AM
Remote Name: 205.218.118.139

Comments

There's lots of things that could cause this. Could be some sealer left in the tank from over the winter. Could be they didn't clean the tank pre-season (residue on the walls can do the same thing) perhaps they are not filtering the sealer (using a gravity feed tank or something). The part of the question about the oil spots was kind of a giveaway that this probably wasn't an A-1 job. By the way I think Pavement mag. is planning a seminar with a panel discussion on advanced sealcoating or sealing tough jobs...something like that for NPE 2001, will probably be interesting to help answer these type questions.

Re: Sealcoating

From: Sherlock Holmes
Date: 9/1/00
Time: 8:25:18 PM
Remote Name: 166.72.235.192

Comments

I say old chaps, I believe we can solve this dilemma with a little logical thinking and some jolly good detective work. Dr. Watson & I have been discussing this sealcoating mystery at length over tea and crumpets. We have concluded the sealer most likely suffered frost damage AFTER APPLICATION, provided the dust you see is truly sealer. Another possibility is that the black spots are nothing more than particulate fall-out from the atmosphere if you are in an industrial area.

We urge you blokes who jumped to conclusions to keep a stiff upper lip as we give this investigation a “bit of a go” as we say over here. Speculation that the tank and/or its contents caused the problem seem exceedingly remote for several reasons:

1) Sealer that freezes along the wall of a steel tank will produce small flakes. Sealer that fell victim to a hard freeze will form flakes larger than your thumbnail about 1/16 inch thick.

2) Neither of these particle sizes can be effectively SPRAYED on the pavement because just like sealer suffering from “polymer shock” it will clog not only the strainer basket, but the spray tip as well. When this occurs, you will spend as much (or more) time cleaning the strainer and/or tip as you do spraying.

3) Although small flakes in the sealer could be brushed or squeegeed onto the pavement, it would be impossible for a contractor to work with large flakes without noticing something was wrong. Of course, the night-time temperatures you experienced about this time would not cause a hard freeze unless wind chill became a factor. But that would require sustained winds of 60 MPH or more for perhaps a day or longer.

4) Large flakes contained in a tank must be shoveled or scooped out in buckets, because they will clog a standard 3 inch gate valve or ball valve fitting. The contractor would notice a sharp reduction in the flow of liquid out of his drop tube.

Don’s speculation that the contractor “did a lousy job” appears to be a hasty conclusion not at all supported by the facts presented. Of course, since he claims to be a consultant, I suppose we must forgive him because consultants throughout the world tend to blame others. It appears the chap lacks knowledge of a wide range of design mixes and cold weather emergency modification of the design mix. Here’s why: Cold weather, especially at or slightly above freezing, dramatically changes the normal rules associated with formulating high quality mixes. In fact, it turns them topsy turvy. For example, a high quality mix is generally 1 part sealer concentrate to 1/3 gallon of water (1:.3). Yet a sealer this thick may not dry before sundown. When sudden unexpected weather changes occur, experienced professionals caught in the middle of a job that must be completed may decide to over-dilute the mix by 1:2, 1:3 or even 1:4, just so the sealer will dry before it freezes. Normally this would be considered an irresponsible act because mixes this thin do not wear well, perhaps no longer than a month or two. But if the contractor can prevent the sealer from freezing and peeling away in sheets, he can build up the mil thickness with another application in warmer weather and create a durable coating on the pavement.

You will be wise to remember that weather forecasts for night-time lows are commonly off by 6-8° F. So we believe the sealcoating contractor to be the innocent victim of Mother Nature. Had he been a scallawag shilly shallying about the parking lot putting down an over-diluted product, perhaps committing consumer fraud, it is unlikely you would have experienced this problem.

 

 

Any sealcoaters ever used "black beauty"?

From: BobbyTox
Date: 7/26/00
Time: 10:28:01 PM
Remote Name: 205.188.198.24

Comments

Have any of you used black beauty or black diamond as a replacement for silica sand in your mix? If so how much did you use and what are the pros and cons. Im thinking about trying it but Im wary of using it sense I never have. It looks like it would look nice on a sealed lot but Im not sure if it might make the lot look too "sparkly". Thanks for any help.

Re: Any sealcoaters ever used "black beauty"?

From: Don
Date: 7/27/00
Time: 8:26:38 AM
Remote Name: 208.180.74.170

Comments

You might get more response on the NPCA board where there are more sealcoaters... Personally we don't use it, it's more expensive than sand and I myself, don't like the "sparkle" look (some people do) also boiler slag (Black Beauty) is a harder, much less absorbent product which makes it harder for the sealer to grip or bind. This can increase the chances of a "roll out" problem unless you use less aggregate or more additives etc.

Re: Any sealcoaters ever used "black beauty"?

From: jpanz
Date: 7/27/00
Time: 12:11:54 PM
Remote Name: 151.198.133.90

Comments

The sealcoater I work for use it. They may mix a little silca into it.

I have never heard them complain about it.

Jim

Re: Any sealcoaters ever used "black beauty"?

From: Fonz
Date: 7/28/00
Time: 12:40:41 AM
Remote Name: 209.244.89.253

Comments

The darn stuff is manufactured a few miles from me..........a by-product of "Great Lakes Steel" It's slagfrom the steel making process. If you use it use the "FINE" grit.......the medium and course will come out of suspension when they spray it. The courser grades will not stick to the sealer. After a couple months the parking lot is loaded with black sand. SO......use the "Fine" grit...........it does make a parking lot look quite durable.

 

 

seal coating equipment

From: J in Tx
Date: 9/21/00
Time: 3:11:27 PM
Remote Name: 205.188.193.57

Comments

What is a good brand of seal coating equipment to buy or, would it be possable to make your own spray rig. If it's possable to build on what all would i need on make one. Thanks,J.

 

seal coating equipment

From: J in Tx
Date: 9/21/00
Time: 3:11:27 PM
Remote Name: 205.188.193.57

Comments

What is a good brand of seal coating equipment to buy or, would it be possable to make your own spray rig. If it's possable to build on what all would i need on make one. Thanks,J.

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seal coating equipment

From: J in Tx
Date: 9/21/00
Time: 3:11:27 PM
Remote Name: 205.188.193.57

Comments

What is a good brand of seal coating equipment to buy or, would it be possable to make your own spray rig. If it's possable to build on what all would i need on make one. Thanks,J.

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Re: seal coating equipment

From: Don
Date: 9/22/00
Time: 9:10:18 AM
Remote Name: 208.180.74.170

Comments

It depends on your skill level or the availability of skilled welders/fabricators. We built our own and it's better than any "store bought" I've ever seen, but I had some great help. If you have access to a good quality tank it helps. You'll need access to hardened steel shafts, heavy-duty bearings, hydraulic components, etc. If you buy ready made or build your own insist on a Wilden pump. Model M-4 or M-8. Trust me on this one they are the best/most dependable/etc. For some reason most mfg.s don't use big enough air compressors to properly power them. Air pumps need lots of CFM but only about 100-120 psi. Wilden has a chart to show the output of the pumps for the size compressor. You don't need the capacity for a spray wand but you do for multiple wands, spray bars, or transfering. You probably wouldn't save much if you had to hire-out a lot of the work. Every brand I've seen has advantages and disadvantages. Neal (now Blaw-Knox) is probably the most popular but I wouldn't want one. Star-Florida's is probably as good as any but they use Graco pumps which are not as good as Wilden and much harder to service (but cheaper) and their air compressors are undersized for anything but hand wand use. (On their 600 gal they claim 90 gpm, that's only theory)But ALL manufacturers do the same type stuff. Some co's use Graco but will sub a Wilden for a few $ more. I've never used one, but Equipt makes an interesting looking "starter" rig and you can spec the Wilden. They also use separate engines for air and hydraulics which is very good and you can spec a larger compressor for spray bar use. They're at http://www.equiptmanufacturing.com. Another tip is most mfg. use 100 ft wand hoses, For spraying lots of sand (5-6lbs.) and/or additives 50-60 ft will spray much better and it's not as heavy as 100'.

Re: seal coating equipment

From: Don
Date: 9/22/00
Time: 9:10:18 AM
Remote Name: 208.180.74.170

Comments

It depends on your skill level or the availability of skilled welders/fabricators. We built our own and it's better than any "store bought" I've ever seen, but I had some great help. If you have access to a good quality tank it helps. You'll need access to hardened steel shafts, heavy-duty bearings, hydraulic components, etc. If you buy ready made or build your own insist on a Wilden pump. Model M-4 or M-8. Trust me on this one they are the best/most dependable/etc. For some reason most mfg.s don't use big enough air compressors to properly power them. Air pumps need lots of CFM but only about 100-120 psi. Wilden has a chart to show the output of the pumps for the size compressor. You don't need the capacity for a spray wand but you do for multiple wands, spray bars, or transfering. You probably wouldn't save much if you had to hire-out a lot of the work. Every brand I've seen has advantages and disadvantages. Neal (now Blaw-Knox) is probably the most popular but I wouldn't want one. Star-Florida's is probably as good as any but they use Graco pumps which are not as good as Wilden and much harder to service (but cheaper) and their air compressors are undersized for anything but hand wand use. (On their 600 gal they claim 90 gpm, that's only theory)But ALL manufacturers do the same type stuff. Some co's use Graco but will sub a Wilden for a few $ more. I've never used one, but Equipt makes an interesting looking "starter" rig and you can spec the Wilden. They also use separate engines for air and hydraulics which is very good and you can spec a larger compressor for spray bar use. They're at http://www.equiptmanufacturing.com. Another tip is most mfg. use 100 ft wand hoses, For spraying lots of sand (5-6lbs.) and/or additives 50-60 ft will spray much better and it's not as heavy as 100'.

 

Re: seal coating equipment

From: Bookman
Date: 10/8/00
Time: 6:40:17 PM
Remote Name: 166.72.235.39

Comments

If you buy a commercially built unit, it will perform well all day long, day in day out & you’ll quickly recover your investment. You need to have an idea what type of jobs you intend to go after because that will help determine the tank size you need & perhaps the hose length. A local competitor here specializes in residential driveways & uses 175 feet of 5/8 inch hose. A word of warning J, it’s hard to trust some of the advice you’ll get along the way. A salesman may steer you to a unit with the highest commission for him. Some advice is based on fraudulent or malicious intent, & other advice may be based on simple ignorance. I think a great example of the latter can be found in Don’s post, specifically the last sentence. To be fair, it’s important to recognize no one knows everything about everything. Pavement maintenance is not High-Tech. It’s very very simple - once you cut through all the jargon and industry “mystique.”

The last sentence: “Most manufacturers use 100 ft. wand hoses. . .” Thank God! 15 years ago most came with 50 footers which really limited PMC’s and caused a significant loss in production because too much time was wasted moving the truck. Recognize that 1) 8-12 feet of the total hose length is essentially unusable (from the pump outlet to the ground) and 2) standard parking lots are laid out in 60 ft. wide increments. With a short hose, too much time and energy is wasted moving the truck. With hose costing about $2 a foot, it doesn’t make sense to limit the versatility of your spray rig. I always use 125 footers, & I only pull off as much length as I need for each job.

“. . .for spraying lots of sand (5-6 lbs). . .” He means 5-6 lbs of sand PER GALLON of sealer solution. Sealer without sand weighs about 10 lbs/gal. Dry silica sand weighs about 12.5-14.5 lbs/gal (231 cu. in.) depending on the size of the grit. But if you add 5 lbs of sand to a gal of sealer solution, the sand will displace a portion of the sealer, in this case about 22%. So instead of 15#/gal, it’s only about 13#/gal.

“. . .and/or additives. . .” Latex rubber & nitrile rubber (or a comparable “viscosity builder” used to keep sand suspended in the solution) are actually somewhat lighter than the sealer solution itself without sand. Besides, the volume of such additives rarely exceeds 2% of the sealer CONCENTRATE (not solution) in the tank.

“. . .50-60 ft will spray much better. . .” How so? I’ve never seen the need to increase pump pressure, never seen a change (however slight) in the spray pattern or volume. But “MUCH” better rather than simply “better?”

“. . .and it’s not as heavy as 100 ft.” Don’t worry J. It’s unlikely you’ll ever suffer a rupture from using one of the 100/125 footers. That’s because the hose is considerably lighter than Don would have you believe. Standard spray hose is 3/4 in. inside diameter (ID). My Goodyear 250 PSI rated hose weighs a WHOPPING 6 oz. per ft. A 50 ft. length weights 18.75 lbs & a 100 ft length weighs 37.5 lbs. The hose wand, spray tip & fittings will weigh between 7-12 lbs. depending on its length & construction.

If we load that hose with the “heavy” sand load (mentioned above), it really won’t make that hose weigh much more because it only holds 2 liquid ounces PER FOOT, or 1 gal per 43.5 ft!!! That means a loaded 50 footer will weigh about 33.5 lbs., while the 100 footer weighs about 67 lbs. True, that may be a significant weight, but before you get weak in the knees J, remember this. THE PAVEMENT WILL SUPPORT VIRTUALLY THE ENTIRE LOAD. No kidding! You can always trust Bookman to tell the truth. And there is even better news. When you need to move the hose, you simply pull it across the pavement. And when you have to coil it up on your tank, you only pick up a few feet of it at a time. You don’t have to be an Olympic weight lifter!

But since you will work backwards when spraying, it makes sense to have someone move the hose for you. Bookwoman is an excellent hose tender. At 140 lbs. & over 50 years of age, she can work all day without complaining. If you don’t think you can handle all the weight of a 3/4 in. hose, you might consider ordering a 5/8 in ID hose from The Cub Scout Sealcoaters Supply House (1-800-Puberty). I hope this helps dispel some myths for you J. Personally I find it totally unacceptable & irresponsible for an experienced contractor, especially an Expo seminar speaker, to lay a bunch of silly, categorically untrue BS on a newcomer who simply asked for some advice.

 

Oil Spot Removal from Asphalt

From: ElidaEve
Date: 8/3/00 5:18:37 PM

Can someone share info on best way to remove and correct oil spot damage on asphalt pavement. Pavement is pitted on some of the parking bays but not soften beyond the surface. What's the best complete procedure? Like, best brand of detergent, what kind of filler to smooth pitted area, what kind of oil primer to use to lesson future damage, etc. Any tricks of the trade would be greatly appreciated.

 

From: Don
Date: 8/3/00 8:20:37 PM
OK here's the free advice. If you can take a pocket knife or thin blade screwdriver and press it through the asphalt it needs to be cut to square, removed and replaced. If not you can take a hand torch (weed burner) and LIGHTLY burn off the surface oils (do not get hot enough to flame or damage the pavement). No need for an oil spot primer unless you are sealcoating. If sealcoating see www.pavementpro.org and start with the FAQ page for tips on oil spots, primer use etc.

 

From: BobbyTox
Date: 8/4/00 8:11:30 AM
Sometimes oil spots can be very difficult...Get you a propane tank and a handheld propane torch (Harbor freight tools sells the torch) and you can flash burn as much of the oil off as you can. Put some oil spot primer on the spot, if the spots are bad you may want to put it on with out diluting it much and after you do that take some silica sand and sprinkle it all over the spot while you have the primer on, it really helps to adhere the sealer to the spot.....

 

From: BobbyTox
Date: 8/4/00 8:11:30 AM
Sometimes oil spots can be very difficult...Get you a propane tank and a handheld propane torch (Harbor freight tools sells the torch) and you can flash burn as much of the oil off as you can. Put some oil spot primer on the spot, if the spots are bad you may want to put it on with out diluting it much and after you do that take some silica sand and sprinkle it all over the spot while you have the primer on, it really helps to adhere the sealer to the spot.....

 

From: Fonz
Date: 8/6/00 12:42:47 PM
I don't have the experience here. I never tried it. But at last years round table, a guy there stood up ad swore by brushing in Portland cement. One application to remove all the remaining oil and residue and then a second brushed in really well just before you seal-coat it. The guy swore by it.

 

From: Fonz
Date: 8/6/00 12:42:47 PM
I don't have the experience here. I never tried it. But at last years round table, a guy there stood up ad swore by brushing in Portland cement. One application to remove all the remaining oil and residue and then a second brushed in really well just before you seal-coat it. The guy swore by it.

 

From: ATS
Date: 8/18/00 5:52:15 PM
If you're talking about automotive oil spills, you can try this: Kitty little and coke. That's right, CocaCola and kitty litter. First, take the kitty litter and pour a large amount directly on the spill. Then, mash (bad word) smash the kitty litter into the oil and evenly walk all over the area thus mixing the oil with the kitty litter. Then, pour at least a 2 liter bottle of coke onto the kitty litter and take a break. After a couple of hours, hose the area, or shovel the kitty litter off, then hose the area. If this doesn't do the majority of the job, then the oil has been sitting (eating away at the surface) for too long.

Good luck.

American Traffic Supply signshop2000.com

 

From: ElidaEve
Date: 8/5/00 10:26:02 AM
Thank you for the information. I did the test with the knife and discovered that the asphalt is very soft. I am not equipt to do what Don indicated was necessary, therefore thank you for helping me avoid a potential PR nightmare.

 

From: Bookman
Date: 8/8/00 8:58:06 PM
Don't ever assume the spot you see on top of the pavement is any indication of the damage below the pavement. Could be 2 to 6 times larger. If you ever bid a repair, leave it open ended in terms of pricing for labor and materials and time. We charge based on the square footage in 2-inch increment layers, but some pavements may be 6 to 8 inches deep. It's very exploratory. If you are able to look at the edge of the pavment, don't assume that the depth of the asphalt in the damaged area is the same depth. Could be greater, could be lesser. If the customer won't accept an honest, open-ended offer, assume an area 6 times larger than what you expect it to be & you will probably be real close. If you still get burned (& you probably will), call the Fonz. We once bid a $60 repair that ended up being damaged to China & costing $300 which we ended up eating. Ah experience! P.S. Maybe the purpose of the portland cement on the damage (mentioned above) was to draw the oil up. We've never tried it. We don't think it's possible to draw all of the oils out of damaged pavement. If orange shellac or a specialty product such as SealMaster Petro-Seal won't form a permanent barrier, you either dig it out or tell the customer to expect a rapid failure of your sealer and/or stripes. Has anybody ever been successful with the burning method mentioned earlier with a 500,000 btu propane torch with very little or no experience, i.e., distance above the pavement to hold the lance, etc.

 

From: Don
Date: 8/12/00 9:58:10 AM
Ahh..experience. I agree about that but not your method of repair pricing. We always bid fixed prices (except for a bid expiration clause). We consider it our job to know how to determine thickness and specifications. You are right about oil-spot damage usually being deeper and worse than it looks too. The 500,000 btu torch is overkill and could easily damage the pavement more. The torch technique is ONLY good for burning fresh oils off the surface. Hold the torch at least a foot to 18" away (more if using 500,000 btu) and be careful not to "flash" the oil. You want to burn off the oil without getting the pavement hot enough to burn the asphalt binder oils. Use a constantly moving circular motion...don't ever hold the heat to any one place very long. At best this method only gets an oil spot dry enough for a primer to work without bleeding through. Also we use dense steel brushes on broom handles to seriously scrub oil spots (then blow off the resulting crud) before priming. We carry these brushes striping too because they're great for times when there's caked on mud or run-over hamburger etc. stuck on a stripe.